Post Op Privledge

[Willow Arune]

Rachelle and Julie have been discussing male privilege and the so-called
"Post-op" privldege. I thought it needed a separate thread...

On the loss of male privilege, all that can be summed up by one of my
friends. I had visited them often as Will for supper. After supper, the
habit was to head out to the back porch and share a cigarette with the
husband. I did that as Willow and was hauled back to the kitchen by the
wife. "You get to be in here now" she said, and we cleaned up the dishes
and such together. She was right, I had lost that male privilege. Over
time, I became much closer with her and more distinct with him.

When it comes to post-op privilege, this most often appears in comments form
pre-ops. I do not think of tit as privilege at all, but rather that some
have an experience and that gives them a different perspective.

You are about to fly to Australia. her are three planes you can take, all
the same QUANTAS. One is advertised as having a pilot who has flown the
route time and time again, with years of experience. One has a pilot who
has been over the route a few times in a different plane, and one has a new
pilot, flying a new plane that he has never flown before on a route he has
not flown before.

You want to ask a question about the particular use of the plane on that
route. Who do you ask and who do you fly with?

It seems to me that post-op privilege when used by pre-ops is totally bedded
in jealousy. It is a way of negating experience in commets and used to
validate the opinions of pre-ops who feel that post-ops "put then down". It
confuses privilege with experience. Sometimes there is some validity to the
"put down" aspects ("You don't know you are talking about as...") but that
is rare. More often, it is used by Jennifer Usher types as a way of
suggesting that their opinions on transition and TSity are as valid and
equal in worth to those of a person who has had SRS. It is used by those
with a penis to enable them to state that their opinions on the same matters
are equal (in Jennifer's case, better than) those who have experienced SRS.
It goes further, to enable someone still in a male role to claim to know all
there is to know about TSity, even able that of one who is in transition or
post-op.

Unlike the pilots, each of us fly the SRS journey only once. Nor it is a
return trip. It is a gulf that separates in real ways, those who can go
back from those who have not yet made the trip and can stay at home. A
journey that leaves one different in many ways to the end of time.

The only purpose I can see to advance a claim of post-op privilege is by
pre-ops and pre-transition types. In an egalitarian world, that would be
fine. But this is one situation where egalitarian only works within defined
groups. While some pre-op opinion may be valid, just as there may be wisdom
in a statement by a pre-transition TS, they talk of things as a theory.
Those in transition or post-op talk from experience. To me, it is a matter
of the weight you attach to the opinion...

Willow





--
Hugs,
Willow

NOTE: The opinions above are those of the writer and are not directed at
anyone nor aimed at convincing you of the right or wrong of anything. The
writer is bias, opinionated and stubborn. This expression of the writer's
opinion is admittedly possibly wrong or possibly right, or a combination of
the two,. Unless clearly referenced, there is no scientific basis for
anything stated herein. You may differ and convince me that I am wrong.
Please feel free to do so . In the event some of the above is in response
to an opinion expressed by you, if the writer differs from your opinion that
is not an attack on you as a person nor does the writer claim that you are
wrong. It is simply that the writer's opinion differs from yours and
differences are neither good nor bad, merely different. That being said,
nothing should be inferred as a personal attack unless such is clearly noted
as such - and the writer assures you that if she intends to get personal,
you will know it...

[Willow Arune]

One example of how the issue of "post-op privilege" arises.

Jennifer Usher has referred to her boyfriend on several occasions. Let us
assume that such is an intimate relationship. Now, a question arises on
intimacy and the role of a woman in such a relationship.

On one side, you have comments from a post-op woman, a woman with a
neo-vagina. Let's say you also solicited opinions from several women who
were (a silly expression) "born women", one of whom has never had an
intimate relationship with a male..

Now you ask the same question of all parties, a question dealing a woman's
feelings with intimacy in a male-female relationship.

I suggest to you that the opinions worth the most in this matter would be
ranked, starting with the most "experienced" from the women "born women" who
had been in and experienced one or several relationships with men. You
would give less weight to the comments from the women "born woman" who had
never had an intimate relationship with a man. I would tend to give a more
weight to the TS woman who had been intimate with a man, more than the born
woman who had not had such a relationship, almost as much as I give to the
women born women who share that experience. I would give little or no
weight to Jennifer's opinions as she is still a male physically, has a penis
and not a vagina or neo-vagina, and while intimate with a man is in what
most would consider a gay relationship.

If I pose a different question, one concerning who women feel in certain
situations, I would also use the same priority, perhaps changing it just a
bit by adding some weight to the women "born woman" but who has not had an
intimate relationship. I would still rank Jennifer's opinion lowest, as she
has not yet crossed over and, like it or not, she is not female physically
and to me, lacks the right "credentials".

In all of the above, I accept the fact that on occasion, Jennifer may be
"right" - if such word really has any value in that situation. There is
always a possibility that the experts may be wrong and an amateur right.
But on the whole, she is less likely to be right as she has not shared the
experience of a woman to the degree that the others have.

Vis-a-vis the post op transsexual woman, Jennifer would call that "post-op
privilege". In doing so, she is attempting to make her opinion of greater
worth than it would normally and logically have by denying that any
difference in weighing should exist. If Jennifer was a total egalitarian,
that would make some sense. But often she goes much further. By twisting
her only limited experiences up a few notches, she not only claims to have
an opinion of equal worth - or weight - but due to her "special status"
(which she creates for herself) that somehow her opinions should be valued
at even greater worth. She does this in an interesting ways. She has to do
one of two things - either advance her "woman" status over others to equal
that of the women born women, and to tear down any gain in credibility given
to those with more experience than her - notably the post-op transsexual
woman and the woman who has not had certain experiences. In usage, she does
this by always advancing her won status as a woman (i.e. "my boyfriend and
I..." without referring to her physical state) and by attacking any post-op
with terms such as "male", "man" and the like.

Once you understand what she is doing and why, her methodology becomes
clear - and rather sad.

"Post-op privilege" is based on experience. I fear that "pre-op privilege"
is nothing but a new name for the same old "male privilege" we know so
well...

Willow

Post by Willow Arune
Rachelle and Julie have been discussing male privilege and the so-called
"Post-op" privldege. I thought it needed a separate thread...
On the loss of male privilege, all that can be summed up by one of my
friends. I had visited them often as Will for supper. After supper, the
habit was to head out to the back porch and share a cigarette with the
husband. I did that as Willow and was hauled back to the kitchen by the
wife. "You get to be in here now" she said, and we cleaned up the dishes
and such together. She was right, I had lost that male privilege. Over
time, I became much closer with her and more distinct with him.
When it comes to post-op privilege, this most often appears in comments form
pre-ops. I do not think of tit as privilege at all, but rather that some
have an experience and that gives them a different perspective.
You are about to fly to Australia. her are three planes you can take, all
the same QUANTAS. One is advertised as having a pilot who has flown the
route time and time again, with years of experience. One has a pilot who
has been over the route a few times in a different plane, and one has a new
pilot, flying a new plane that he has never flown before on a route he has
not flown before.
You want to ask a question about the particular use of the plane on that
route. Who do you ask and who do you fly with?
It seems to me that post-op privilege when used by pre-ops is totally bedded
in jealousy. It is a way of negating experience in commets and used to
validate the opinions of pre-ops who feel that post-ops "put then down".

It

Post by Willow Arune
confuses privilege with experience. Sometimes there is some validity to the
"put down" aspects ("You don't know you are talking about as...") but that
is rare. More often, it is used by Jennifer Usher types as a way of
suggesting that their opinions on transition and TSity are as valid and
equal in worth to those of a person who has had SRS. It is used by those
with a penis to enable them to state that their opinions on the same matters
are equal (in Jennifer's case, better than) those who have experienced SRS.
It goes further, to enable someone still in a male role to claim to know all
there is to know about TSity, even able that of one who is in transition or
post-op.
Unlike the pilots, each of us fly the SRS journey only once. Nor it is a
return trip. It is a gulf that separates in real ways, those who can go
back from those who have not yet made the trip and can stay at home. A
journey that leaves one different in many ways to the end of time.
The only purpose I can see to advance a claim of post-op privilege is by
pre-ops and pre-transition types. In an egalitarian world, that would be
fine. But this is one situation where egalitarian only works within defined
groups. While some pre-op opinion may be valid, just as there may be wisdom
in a statement by a pre-transition TS, they talk of things as a theory.
Those in transition or post-op talk from experience. To me, it is a matter
of the weight you attach to the opinion...
Willow
--
Hugs,
Willow
NOTE: The opinions above are those of the writer and are not directed at
anyone nor aimed at convincing you of the right or wrong of anything. The
writer is bias, opinionated and stubborn. This expression of the writer's
opinion is admittedly possibly wrong or possibly right, or a combination of
the two,. Unless clearly referenced, there is no scientific basis for
anything stated herein. You may differ and convince me that I am wrong.
Please feel free to do so . In the event some of the above is in response
to an opinion expressed by you, if the writer differs from your opinion that
is not an attack on you as a person nor does the writer claim that you are
wrong. It is simply that the writer's opinion differs from yours and
differences are neither good nor bad, merely different. That being said,
nothing should be inferred as a personal attack unless such is clearly noted
as such - and the writer assures you that if she intends to get personal,
you will know it...

[Jennifer Usher]

Post by Willow Arune
One example of how the issue of "post-op privilege" arises.
Jennifer Usher has referred to her boyfriend on several occasions. Let us
assume that such is an intimate relationship. Now, a question arises on
intimacy and the role of a woman in such a relationship.

Yes, I have, and you know what? The question of intimacy in my
relationship, or that of anyone else here is really not any of your
business.

Post by Willow Arune
On one side, you have comments from a post-op woman, a woman with a
neo-vagina. Let's say you also solicited opinions from several women who
were (a silly expression) "born women", one of whom has never had an
intimate relationship with a male..
Now you ask the same question of all parties, a question dealing a woman's
feelings with intimacy in a male-female relationship.

And such a question is ignorant. How can any woman truly know if her
experiences are exactly like those of another woman.

Post by Willow Arune
I suggest to you that the opinions worth the most in this matter would be
ranked, starting with the most "experienced" from the women "born women" who
had been in and experienced one or several relationships with men. You
would give less weight to the comments from the women "born woman" who had
never had an intimate relationship with a man. I would tend to give a more
weight to the TS woman who had been intimate with a man, more than the born
woman who had not had such a relationship, almost as much as I give to the
women born women who share that experience. I would give little or no
weight to Jennifer's opinions as she is still a male physically, has a penis
and not a vagina or neo-vagina, and while intimate with a man is in what
most would consider a gay relationship.

I would say that all of the opinions are equally valid. Only the
worst of bigots would consider such a relationship to be a gay
relationship if both partners see it as a straight one. In fact,
given that a person's intimate life is none of your business, your
opinion on the entire subject is the most invalid of all. People who
knew me and my boyfriend, or more properly, my former boyfriend, often
thought we were married. I had a lot of people refer to him as my
husband. Now, they did not know anything about the intimate side of
our relationship. No more than you do. And that is the way it should
be.

Post by Willow Arune
If I pose a different question, one concerning who women feel in certain
situations, I would also use the same priority, perhaps changing it just a
bit by adding some weight to the women "born woman" but who has not had an
intimate relationship. I would still rank Jennifer's opinion lowest, as she
has not yet crossed over and, like it or not, she is not female physically
and to me, lacks the right "credentials".

Well, you should rank your own as lowest of all. Since you are not,
by any stretch of the imagination, a woman.

Post by Willow Arune
In all of the above, I accept the fact that on occasion, Jennifer may be
"right" - if such word really has any value in that situation. There is
always a possibility that the experts may be wrong and an amateur right.
But on the whole, she is less likely to be right as she has not shared the
experience of a woman to the degree that the others have.

Actually, this who post is pure ignorance. The only one who can
really judge the quality of a relationship between two people are the
two people involved.

Post by Willow Arune
Vis-a-vis the post op transsexual woman, Jennifer would call that "post-op
privilege". In doing so, she is attempting to make her opinion of greater
worth than it would normally and logically have by denying that any
difference in weighing should exist. If Jennifer was a total egalitarian,
that would make some sense. But often she goes much further. By twisting
her only limited experiences up a few notches, she not only claims to have
an opinion of equal worth - or weight - but due to her "special status"
(which she creates for herself) that somehow her opinions should be valued
at even greater worth. She does this in an interesting ways. She has to do
one of two things - either advance her "woman" status over others to equal
that of the women born women, and to tear down any gain in credibility given
to those with more experience than her - notably the post-op transsexual
woman and the woman who has not had certain experiences. In usage, she does
this by always advancing her won status as a woman (i.e. "my boyfriend and
I..." without referring to her physical state) and by attacking any post-op
with terms such as "male", "man" and the like.

ROTFL!!!! I have never used that term. Your entire argument is based
on a falsehood.

Post by Willow Arune
Once you understand what she is doing and why, her methodology becomes
clear - and rather sad.

What I am doing is simply pointing out the fact that your "path" to
your imagined "womanhood" is bizarre, inconsistent with what is
accepted as transsexualism, and is just plain bogus. Priviledge of
any sort has nothing to do with it, beyond your fetid little
imagination.

Post by Willow Arune
"Post-op privilege" is based on experience. I fear that "pre-op privilege"
is nothing but a new name for the same old "male privilege" we know so
well...

ROTFL!!! You really are a hoot.

Jennifer Usher

[Catalina Thunders]

Hi Jennifer,

This is just her way of seeking revenge, & it's
pretty transparent.

But I need to say this:

You know that I agree with a lot of things you (&
Diane) say regarding certain people's credibility,
but...

Though her story is another variation on the
ancient & tired "I'm JUSTIFIED in being TS (& by
implication you're not)" theme, & though she tends
to be highly irrational (which is why I consider
her a kook), I'm not comfortable with referring to
her as "he", or as a "mutilated man", or any of
that sort of thing.

I've omitted mentioning this in the past, but now
that some people seem to perceive *me* (mainly, I
suppose, due to their poor reading skills &
eagerness to make assumptions) as being in
agreement with you & Diane on this particular
habit of calling people who profess to be
trans-women "he", I feel the need to make the
distinction clearly here. <aside to the kooks:
look it up on Google!> Of course, you already knew
this, but I felt the need to go on record since
assumptions seem to be as good as facts to many
people here.

Hey, what can you expect from a NG where jokes
about shooting all extremists or the rudeness of
leaving the caps lock on generates *serious*
responses?

I did so hope that the LCD wouldn't be so
prevalent online, but alas: <sigh>
'tisn't so.

Okay, now that's out of the way --

How're ya doin? Email me!

Cheers,

Cat

Post by Jennifer Usher

Post by Willow Arune
One example of how the issue of "post-op privilege" arises.
Jennifer Usher has referred to her boyfriend on several occasions. Let us
assume that such is an intimate relationship. Now, a question arises on
intimacy and the role of a woman in such a relationship.

Yes, I have, and you know what? The question of intimacy in my
relationship, or that of anyone else here is really not any of your
business.

Post by Willow Arune
On one side, you have comments from a post-op woman, a woman with a
neo-vagina. Let's say you also solicited opinions from several women who
were (a silly expression) "born women", one of whom has never had an
intimate relationship with a male..
Now you ask the same question of all parties, a question dealing a woman's
feelings with intimacy in a male-female relationship.

And such a question is ignorant. How can any woman truly know if her
experiences are exactly like those of another woman.

Post by Willow Arune
I suggest to you that the opinions worth the most in this matter would be
ranked, starting with the most "experienced" from the women "born women" who
had been in and experienced one or several relationships with men. You
would give less weight to the comments from the women "born woman" who had
never had an intimate relationship with a man. I would tend to give a more
weight to the TS woman who had been intimate with a man, more than the born
woman who had not had such a relationship, almost as much as I give to the
women born women who share that experience. I would give little or no
weight to Jennifer's opinions as she is still a male physically, has a penis
and not a vagina or neo-vagina, and while intimate with a man is in what
most would consider a gay relationship.

I would say that all of the opinions are equally valid. Only the
worst of bigots would consider such a relationship to be a gay
relationship if both partners see it as a straight one. In fact,
given that a person's intimate life is none of your business, your
opinion on the entire subject is the most invalid of all. People who
knew me and my boyfriend, or more properly, my former boyfriend, often
thought we were married. I had a lot of people refer to him as my
husband. Now, they did not know anything about the intimate side of
our relationship. No more than you do. And that is the way it should
be.

Post by Willow Arune
If I pose a different question, one concerning who women feel in certain
situations, I would also use the same priority, perhaps changing it just a
bit by adding some weight to the women "born woman" but who has not had an
intimate relationship. I would still rank Jennifer's opinion lowest, as she
has not yet crossed over and, like it or not, she is not female physically
and to me, lacks the right "credentials".

Well, you should rank your own as lowest of all. Since you are not,
by any stretch of the imagination, a woman.

Post by Willow Arune
In all of the above, I accept the fact that on occasion, Jennifer may be
"right" - if such word really has any value in that situation. There is
always a possibility that the experts may be wrong and an amateur right.
But on the whole, she is less likely to be right as she has not shared the
experience of a woman to the degree that the others have.

Actually, this who post is pure ignorance. The only one who can
really judge the quality of a relationship between two people are the
two people involved.

Post by Willow Arune
Vis-a-vis the post op transsexual woman, Jennifer would call that "post-op
privilege". In doing so, she is attempting to make her opinion of greater
worth than it would normally and logically have by denying that any
difference in weighing should exist. If Jennifer was a total egalitarian,
that would make some sense. But often she goes much further. By twisting
her only limited experiences up a few notches, she not only claims to have
an opinion of equal worth - or weight - but due to her "special status"
(which she creates for herself) that somehow her opinions should be valued
at even greater worth. She does this in an interesting ways. She has to do
one of two things - either advance her "woman" status over others to equal
that of the women born women, and to tear down any gain in credibility given
to those with more experience than her - notably the post-op transsexual
woman and the woman who has not had certain experiences. In usage, she does
this by always advancing her won status as a woman (i.e. "my boyfriend and
I..." without referring to her physical state) and by attacking any post-op
with terms such as "male", "man" and the like.

ROTFL!!!! I have never used that term. Your entire argument is based
on a falsehood.

Post by Willow Arune
Once you understand what she is doing and why, her methodology becomes
clear - and rather sad.

What I am doing is simply pointing out the fact that your "path" to
your imagined "womanhood" is bizarre, inconsistent with what is
accepted as transsexualism, and is just plain bogus. Priviledge of
any sort has nothing to do with it, beyond your fetid little
imagination.

Post by Willow Arune
"Post-op privilege" is based on experience. I fear that "pre-op privilege"
is nothing but a new name for the same old "male privilege" we know so
well...

ROTFL!!! You really are a hoot.
Jennifer Usher

[Deb Marsh]

Post by Willow Arune
The only purpose I can see to advance a claim of post-op privilege is by
pre-ops and pre-transition types. In an egalitarian world, that would be
fine. But this is one situation where egalitarian only works within
defined groups. While some pre-op opinion may be valid, just as there
may be wisdom in a statement by a pre-transition TS, they talk of things
as a theory. Those in transition or post-op talk from experience. To
me, it is a matter of the weight you attach to the opinion...

I'm not having this. Why the fuck are we so obsessed with categorising our
siblings? How dare we?

Post-op privilege, male privilege - two sides of the same coin. The
assumption of superiority and the wielding of power by other means.

Its a group-think thing. An expression of elitism. The fingers point both
ways here. Huddling in groups in order to ward of external threats entails
the identification of both friend and foe alike. This is the very same
inimical nonsense which we have encountered all of our lives and, yet, so
intent are some in the defence of their present reality, that they must play
the oppressor's game in order to maintain their new-found independence.

Don't know whether to laugh or cry here. Weighing one person's experience
against another's accomplishes just what really? We should be making space
for the totality of our experiences. There is no such thing as "pre-op"
opinion there are only opinions (plural) stemming from individuals at a
certain stage upon their own personal journey. Lumping things together like
this does nothing but dilute or discount the personal - a personal which is
not ours. This is an hollow game and I, for one, will not be playing it any
time soon.

Debs

[Willow Arune]

Deb,

We dare because that's very normal in our society. And because much
grouping tends to be of value in determining - amongst other things - the
weight to be given to an opinion when numbers alone call for a filter of
sorts. Note that I was referring to one instance. In other situations,
Jennifer's opinion would actually have more with that others, due to her
unique experiences. She might, for example, have more experience with STDs
and the Gay community. We are all different in that regard, not good or
bad. And to consider each opinion of the same worth in every matter simply
does not make sense.

Just how does the vast conspiracy of post-ops wield power??? You may call
it "assumption of superiority", I refer to it as shared experience. Same
coin... Elitism?? Well, got back to the pilots or try SRS doctors. do you
want a doctor who has cone hundreds of operations, or one out for the first
time? It that elitism??? Is it not the case that the first timer will have
to drop prices to compete, as his skills are not yet at a level with the
other. so experience + higher paid, little expertise + lower pay. Oh yes,
definitely elitism - but which doctor would you elect if that was the only
information you had upon which to select?

Oppressors game??? Sounds like the rules in "Atlas Shrugged". Referring
again to the doctors, so we handicap the more experienced by insisting that
he only employ recently trained nurses. We give the experienced nurses to
the young doctor. That make it okay for you??? Non elite?? No oppression?
Yes, there most obviously is. The talented and experienced is now oppressed
in the name of egalitarianism. So he moves to... The grand Caymans and ups
his price accordingly.

To deny such differences may sooth your egalitarian heart, but it is totally
unrealistic.

I am not oppressing someone if I, in my sole opinion, limit the weight I
give to certain opinions - and say why I do so. As to the per- and post-,
there is no denying that the pre-s have not yet had SRS; the posts have.
That is a gain of that type of experience. While each of the posts- and
pres- are different, all the posts have that experience; all the pres have
not. It that elitist??? The pres might twill have others skills that rate
higher, as a group, and any individual can be above or below the norms. But
that experience is not shared between the two.

Given a choice, laugh. It is sooooo much better...

Willow

[Jennifer Usher]

Post by Willow Arune
It seems to me that post-op privilege when used by pre-ops is totally bedded
in jealousy. It is a way of negating experience in commets and used to
validate the opinions of pre-ops who feel that post-ops "put then down". It
confuses privilege with experience. Sometimes there is some validity to the
"put down" aspects ("You don't know you are talking about as...") but that
is rare. More often, it is used by Jennifer Usher types as a way of
suggesting that their opinions on transition and TSity are as valid and
equal in worth to those of a person who has had SRS. It is used by those
with a penis to enable them to state that their opinions on the same matters
are equal (in Jennifer's case, better than) those who have experienced SRS.
It goes further, to enable someone still in a male role to claim to know all
there is to know about TSity, even able that of one who is in transition or
post-op.

Well, I have to say, this troll gets nastier, and nastier. I find it
amazing that Lyle, "queen" of the transsexual haters can even bear to
associate himself with this twit.

Yes, I think my opinion on transition and transsexualism are just as
valid as anyone else's. More to the point, I do think they are more
valid than those of a mutilated, mentally ill man like the person who
calls himself Willow. Ironically, without having the good sense to
realize it, Willow has just blasted his best friend, Lyle. I mean
really, Lyle lives in a male role, and <GASP> does claim to know all
there is to know about transsexualism.

No, this twit is simply a bad joke, and not really worth giving the
time of day to.....

Jennifer Usher

[Diane]

Post by Jennifer Usher
No, this twit is simply a bad joke, and not really worth giving the
time of day to....

"Willow" is very much a bad joke ... the joke's on hir however and I
feel more pity for such people than anything else.

[Jennifer Usher]

With respect, I bring to your attention that the above seems in error
on two counts.
(1) If your opinions are just as valid as anyone else's, they can't at
the same time be more valid than anyone's.

Opinions are valid only if based on actual knowledge.

(2) Bigotry (toward post-ops, toward woman, toward the mentally ill,
and toward an individual) isn't a valid opinion, but merely the
necessary consequence of free speech and electronic freedom.

I am not bigoted towards any of the above. The person who calls
himself "Willow" is someone who should never have had surgery, would
do transsexuals a great service if he kept his mouth shut and stopped
trying to promote a story that will only result in people
misunderstanding the nature of transsexualism, and who is simply
trying to justify a very tragic mistake.

Jennifer Usher

[Rachelle Moore]

Being ***@earthlink.net (Jennifer Usher) on or about 27 Jul
2003 14:29:37 -0700 did post or cause to be posted in alt.support.srs

Post by Jennifer Usher

With respect, I bring to your attention that the above seems in error
on two counts.
(1) If your opinions are just as valid as anyone else's, they can't at
the same time be more valid than anyone's.

Opinions are valid only if based on actual knowledge.

Leaving one to wonder what other kinds of knowledge there might
actually be...

Post by Jennifer Usher

(2) Bigotry (toward post-ops, toward woman, toward the mentally ill,
and toward an individual) isn't a valid opinion, but merely the
necessary consequence of free speech and electronic freedom.

I am not bigoted towards any of the above. The person who calls
himself "Willow" is someone who should never have had surgery, would
do transsexuals a great service if he kept his mouth shut and stopped
trying to promote a story that will only result in people
misunderstanding the nature of transsexualism, and who is simply
trying to justify a very tragic mistake.
Jennifer Usher

I myself don't think that anything that shows people that *we actually
exist* is a bad thing. People may be presumed eventually to come to
their own appreciation of a person based on who they are, rather than
*only* their own ingrained prejudices and biases which (believe it or
not) people do tend to outgrow.

If you've got some special insight about "the nature of
transsexualism," do please share.

And I do feel Willow is probably in a better position to decide how,
when, where, and to what extent to try to "serve transsexuals" than
you are. For my own part, I feel grateful she's making an effort, no
matter on what basis.

Do you know her and her situation well enough to have formed the
opinion that she should try to "go back" in some form?

If so, and if you've formed that impression via newsgroups and
e-lists, I have to say: "you don't know."

-
Rachelle

[Qiu Jin]

Post by Jennifer Usher
I am not bigoted towards any of the above. The person who calls
himself "Willow" is someone who should never have had surgery, would
do transsexuals a great service if he kept his mouth shut and stopped
trying to promote a story that will only result in people
misunderstanding the nature of transsexualism, and who is simply
trying to justify a very tragic mistake.

"himself." "he."

You know, I've criticisms for Willow's perspectives - and to respond to
the post that started this thread would take more time than I'd want to
spend on it (and Willow has made it clear that it's not okay to use a
pseudonym if one disagrees with her, but makes no comment on pseudonyms
if one agrees). However, does it really excuse your attempts to erase
her identity? What do you gain from it? Or is it just an attempt to call
her the most horrible thing you can think of?

[Adrienne Messenger]

Post by Willow Arune
Rachelle and Julie have been discussing male privilege and the so-called
"Post-op" privldege. I thought it needed a separate thread...
On the loss of male privilege, all that can be summed up by one of my
friends. I had visited them often as Will for supper. After supper, the
habit was to head out to the back porch and share a cigarette with the
husband. I did that as Willow and was hauled back to the kitchen by the
wife. "You get to be in here now" she said, and we cleaned up the dishes
and such together. She was right, I had lost that male privilege. Over
time, I became much closer with her and more distinct with him.

I think that whether that was a loss of priviledge (or not) is perhaps
a value judgement. If you think it was more fun talking and smoking on
the porch, then for you it's a loss. If the SO was more interesting
company, then it's an improvement. If in the end you became closer to
her, and if it was freely chosen, I'd say you traded up. But I'd be a
bit prejudiced, having zero understanding of the average male's mindset.

Post by Willow Arune
When it comes to post-op privilege, this most often appears in comments form
pre-ops. I do not think of tit as privilege at all, but rather that some
have an experience and that gives them a different perspective.

I've never made accusations of anyone claiming "post-op privilege". I
don't think srs is a priviledge; only perhaps a relief from displeasure,
for those who need it. The difference would be that "priviledge" would
imply that the ts started life at the same level as all other newborn
children, though it seems offhand that that the ts starts their life in
the darkness of a nearly bottomless pit; you can spend most of your life
climbing up to the level where most people begin.

Post by Willow Arune
You are about to fly to Australia. her are three planes you can take, all
the same QUANTAS. One is advertised as having a pilot who has flown the
route time and time again, with years of experience. One has a pilot who
has been over the route a few times in a different plane, and one has a new
pilot, flying a new plane that he has never flown before on a route he has
not flown before.
You want to ask a question about the particular use of the plane on that
route. Who do you ask and who do you fly with?
It seems to me that post-op privilege when used by pre-ops is totally bedded
in jealousy. It is a way of negating experience in commets and used to
validate the opinions of pre-ops who feel that post-ops "put then down". It
confuses privilege with experience. Sometimes there is some validity to the

I can't read people's intent very well. Jealosy or not, all I've seen
is that which is written. Please allow me voice my experience, having
been around the newsgroups longer than some, and having paid attention
to more than many: The most accusations of "post-op priviledge" occur
immediately not so much after a post-op disagreeing with a pre-op and/
or saying something disparaging; it occurs mostly after disagreements
with intellectually lazy and/or dishonest post-ops, whose opinions aren't
backed-up with logical thought or connection to earthly reality. To "win"
their arguments, they substitute "I'm a post-op" in order to grant them-
selves instant authority. I suppose this may work on brain-dead readers,
seeing this happen always leaves me underwhelmed.
I'd quesstimate that very few post-op's have done this most of the time,
and at least half of the newsgroup post-ops have done this once in a
while. Of course, who's really a post-op is another question- One of the
worst of the intellectually dishonest post-ops (Joan Tine) was never a
post-op at all.

I'm not singling out post-ops; intellectually lazy internet-intersexed
folks use that as their claim on instant authority, they are better than
mere trans-people. And for a year or two, trans-lesbians used that as
their superiority, that they were exempt from logical discussion because
they were more a woman by virtue of loving them.

I've no real opinion either way, only a love of reality. I'll get to the
OR soon enough, and I doubt that thought, logic, or the world will change
because of that. As of now, I don't claim Ts-privilege over anyone. I
could, I suppose, if I had an inferior mind. But it's no priv to me to
make it up to ground level. To look into the soul of the stranger, I am
they, and what I see is me.

And I very much doubt that the fundementals of reality changed for you
either, when you had your hot date with Dr Brassard. Get over yourself,
all your success in life has brought you to where every baby girl begins.
And your rape probably bears a striking resemblence to what happens to
most men in american prisons, on a regular basis. You were not the king
of pain. I'm not taking liberties over you the post-op, I'm using the
brain that the goddess gave to each of us (most people don't) Your area
of true expertise lays with what you can related about the ts-process,
not what you can say about everything and anything.

Post by Willow Arune
"put down" aspects ("You don't know you are talking about as...") but that
is rare. More often, it is used by Jennifer Usher types as a way of
suggesting that their opinions on transition and TSity are as valid and
equal in worth to those of a person who has had SRS. It is used by those
with a penis to enable them to state that their opinions on the same matters
are equal (in Jennifer's case, better than) those who have experienced SRS.
It goes further, to enable someone still in a male role to claim to know all
there is to know about TSity, even able that of one who is in transition or
post-op.

I'll give you some slack because you are basically just talking about
Jennifer. She started out as more than a crossdresser, and shes already
more than a woman. Amazing, huh?

Post by Willow Arune
Unlike the pilots, each of us fly the SRS journey only once. Nor it is a
return trip. It is a gulf that separates in real ways, those who can go
back from those who have not yet made the trip and can stay at home. A
journey that leaves one different in many ways to the end of time.
The only purpose I can see to advance a claim of post-op privilege is by
pre-ops and pre-transition types. In an egalitarian world, that would be
fine. But this is one situation where egalitarian only works within defined
groups. While some pre-op opinion may be valid, just as there may be wisdom
in a statement by a pre-transition TS, they talk of things as a theory.

When I get my once in a lifetime srs, would you like me to come back and
tell you how completely mean-spirited and logically inconsistant that
particular idea is? I could, and I would, and by your own standards I'd
be on the same playing field as you. If one can not devote their life
to a higher unconditional love of their fellows, if selfishness were the
truth, then what would be the point to each day's breath? The words of
Mo-Tzu are as true today as they ever were ...

Post by Willow Arune
Those in transition or post-op talk from experience. To me, it is a matter
of the weight you attach to the opinion...

Exactly. The problem arises from those who talk from beyond their rights.
Who here is a god?

Post by Willow Arune
Willow

[t***@gmail.com]

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